@Johann150 sickos: YES

@mametsuko @rick *notes in calender*

@mametsuko its mames birthday (soon)?

@SuperDicq @forestcat @subnetter I dunno the specifics on that workshop but still it might be a valid thing to have workshops where no cis-men are present. Fears and anxiety exist you know.

Programming and PC stuff is a very male-dominated field. So having a few workshops that target flinta only is valuable since they are marginalized in the field in general.

Is not the nicest thing not include you in this specific example? Maybe. But there may be a justification.

Like having other people be able to take part in a workshop when they otherwise could not.

I don't see this as hostile to you espcially but maybe as a "having something for a subset of people as well"

And again I dunno if its worth to die on that hill. Just because some of the workshops may not be open to you.

@fristi why so angry?

@fristi i could use some lekker tosti

@SuperDicq @forestcat @subnetter

Mate like I am sorry what are you even going on about?

In your place I would really not choose to die on that hill really. Not even as a cis-male myself (and occasional crossdresser). Some empathy is really needed for this discussion.

Not a woman myself but listening to women it gets kinda obvious why spaces need to exist that do not include cis-men (no matter how nice me and you may be). The problem is not me or you individually (very likely).

Patriarchy is really bad women and men alike. Like Hell I do not fit into your male stereotype really but still am better off than a women.

I also wish for less spaces that need to exclude people for their own safety or well-being. But as things stand being a women in public is more dangerous on average. May I remind of all the victimblaming, the cat-calling and other shitty stuff patriarchy enables toxic men to do.

Have enough of that shit I can totally understand why stuff like womens-only gyms are a thing.

There are people in these spaces that feel like they have to be on guard constantly because men are around. Which does not need to equate of hating all men btw. They can present themselves very different and be themselves in those places.

These spaces need to exist since society is kinda shit. And rather than bash your head against that the energy should rather be used to fight the shitty thing in the first place: Patriarchy and all its consequences.

And being so assertive to say to demand access to that space is very much toxic behaviour in itself.

There is an open question of how trans-men are handled in these spaces. I cannot tell you how they handle that but since a T is in the Acronym I guess they be welcome?

Also likely no one will press you about being trans or not likely. Thats inappropriate behaviour but so is invading the spaces when you are cis-man. Just don't be dick bro.

Also people having their own spaces does not take anything away from you realistically as well. You are framing this as if its the only thing availiable. If it is stop moaning about it and inspire the change you want to see in the world. Offer some queer group or something as well if there is none.

But please don't harass women in such spaces.

@rick hast wohl net genug von Zügen bekommen

@steph Is it that bad? 🙈

@subnetter
@forestcat
@SuperDicq

The argument of "not all of the men in that statistic are cis" does not really work. Most of the offenders will identify as cis-men for sure. Just because thats how statistics work. There are sooooo many more cis-men in the world than there are inter-men or non-binaries. So it is in total very much likely that most of the offenders might be cis-men.

Now this is not a provable fact but very likely indeed since I don't think these things are even considered in criminal statistics.

Regardless of the whole "not all men are like this"

Generally when you talk to people that are flinta you will certainly have to understand why they would want a space that is not inclusive of cis-men. Experiences are wildly different and obvs. valid. So the question for a person that does not feel comfy around men is "Can I take part in this or not"? Be it because of trauma or whatever else. These people need space for them and them only.

And tbh I dunno if playing victim as a cis-man is the right play here. There are spaces where we are not wanted. So be it. Live with it. Usually there are reasons for that. Safe Spaces are needed.

and I think that asserting based on this restriction that they are againtst you personally is skewed at best.

There are other things where I or you can take part. A generally queer space or thing. If there is not one at the camp make one. Just make it open to everyone.

There are many other things where a cis-man will be no problem whatsoever anyway. Many spaces which are male-dominated or exclusive.

Male-priviledge is real even for chaos I am pretty sure. more than enough things for you take part in no problem.

@subnetter @SuperDicq @forestcat I have heard the stories sadly yes. I was going about that specific community on reddit.

But yes I am aware there is snobbery and exclusion going around in the comm as well. Talking about wearing only brand and looking on people who do not for example.

Though I am pretty sure you would generally find most people would be for not allowing bigots to spew hate. If your comm does not want to do that you might wanna consider joining different events tbh.

But if you want to talk about what happened and what you heard or had to experience I am all ears to listen as well. Getting different perspectives is important. You can obvs. shoot me a DM If you do not wanna have all that public as well.

And if you don't wanna talk about its fine as well

@forestcat @SuperDicq I kinda feel like adding some more thoughts here if you don't mind?

Sorry for maybe going a tad OT here. Just wanted to dump some stuff. Feel free to read it or not.

I have been part or am part of different spaces. Mostly about hobby stuff tbh being Sewing, Sim Racing and Lolita-Fashion.

I usually keep out of politics adj groups though. Left leaning people tend to be more destruction inside the circlr than creating an actual movement that can change things to the better bit by bit. Though for I also draw my lines so that may not help.

I find hobby spaces way easier to join and manage though. There is something there that bands people together across the spectrum: The hobby. Its about doing things, talking about the thing. And its not about who you are.

The best hobby spaces are those that are open to anyone but make an effort to keep the bigots out. Though I also guess online stuff removes a lot of the friction as well since you don't really know how the other person looks that might incur some bias...

Two of the spaces are female dominated being sewing and lolita-fashion. And one being male dominated being Sim-Racing.

Sewing is a lot about creating and doing so exchange gets simple and is about whatever you are making right now or some technique or a finished piece. Atleast the ladies running the fabric store in town are really nice about the stuff I make. Always genuienly interested in the stuff I made out of the fabric I bought :3

Lolita-fashion is normally reserved for women. Ifs a female fashion after all. But no one can stop me! Its a niche though so the general gist is that they are open to anyone who enjoys the fashion no matter of body-type, sex or sexuality. Its about the fashion and how you can look your best in it Really found a home there. All people are encouraged to wear they like and look cute, since Lolita and its roots are against normalcy of what society expects from women ij this case and how they should look.

As with every space there some bigots around and "horror-stories" about non-exceptant people who are snobbish or look down on you depending on some criteria.

Atleast on the Lolita-Subreddit this behaviour is frowned upon and not part of the community. Ver reassuring.

Now Sim-Racing is male-dominated and also a competitive thing as well. Toxic masculine behaviour and just being a bad person. Things can get nasty real quick so finding a good community is key. And here I would totally understand a female-only series/cup to get away from the abuse.

Though there are also people in the space who do better and foster respect and clean racing. Bigotry will just get you banned. Though this could be prevelant in that space for sure.

@puniko krass diese Gerüchteküche... Gehts wohin

@puniko Sehr woozy also

Ich hab gehört du machst ab nächste Woche Urlaub?

@puniko Wie ist das Puni heute so?

@puniko hoi puni puni

@forestcat @SuperDicq I do guess its kinda based on the activity as well if it would make sense to not include straights as well.

The argument I hear is that straight cis-people have enough other spaces they can go to so there is no need to allow them here.

I have not seen FLINTA-spaces (thats Women, Lesbians, Inter-people, non-binary people, trans people and agender people) for myself but I would not be allowed there as a cis-straight male anyway.

Though there are places where I am totally for just falling under queer umbrella while being straight-cis as well.

Way lovelier places than your usual clubs, bars or what have you. (Also I can just go there in whichever way I want to go. Skirts, Dresses what have you) Very valuable places for me. Look cute and be happy in.

Really need to try to go there more often.

I mean there circumstances where not including others makes sense (say some help-groups or whatever) and there are people that just don't want to have cis-men specifically around them.

And barging into there as what I am seems wrong as well and a good way to make everyone unhappy kinda.

Gone off-topic a little ey?

There certainly context where the assumption of cis-straight were to shift. Gay-bars and stuff.

I am generally happy with the community I have and from what I know no one will bat an eye for me joining some chaos event

@rick oh no rick is a puddle now..

@rick but also welcome homo

@rick Why you sweating