I got another one, but first some background info:

When I post online, I’m pretty much always in my roleplay mode where I pretend to be my wyvern character. That’s when I say things like “I’m a wyvern” or I go WAAH or I rant about platform design etc.
But when I want to talk about my character or my identity, I’m in a more distanced mode where I’m just …me. A human who’s sitting behind the keyboard, who created a wyvern character to handle his identity and feelings.

There were times when I was talking about being a human, and then I got a reply saying “but you are a dragon!”
That would’ve been fine if I had been in my roleplay mode, but I wasn’t. I was talking about my identity. And that’s when I don’t want to hear these things at all, because they only hurt.

I know these people meant no harm, so I don’t hold it against them. They couldn’t know.

RE: https://icy.wyvern.rip/notes/a656jduq4xfv4r4k

I was browsing fedi for some inspiration because I plan to add a post on my website about the things I posted on here so far. And then I found the attached image which exemplifies exactly what I meant.

This comic basically implies that being a creature is simply a matter of your mind, and I don’t identify with this idea at all. To me, being a dragon (or whatever animal it may be in the future) means existing as one, in body and mind, with no difference from other members of the same species.
What exactly am I supposed to get from a condescending “oh, but you are, honey”? I’d still have my human body and human mind, thinking human thoughts and doing human things. I very much am not a dragon.

“But Volpeon, it’s more about one’s identity” — yeah, and my identity doesn’t work this way. I don’t get anything positive out of building abstractions just so I can say “I am a dragon”. Those words and concepts don’t change anything meaningful about my reality, where I clearly am not a dragon.

@volpi it’s usually like being trans, except without the existence of appropriate healthcare. from what i see a lot of others feel it like that, and therefore will usually approach others assuming their experience is similar. therefore they will likely think the “im not a [thing]” is the same as a trans person’s dysphoric thoughts which should be fought with reassurance.
if that makes sense.

@kat_cal2 I get what you’re saying, and I can also tell that a lot of people do appreciate the sentiment shown in the comic given how many faves and boosts these posts get.

At the core, the reason why I’m not comfortable with viewing myself as a dragon in a non-roleplaying context is also the reason why religion and spirituality doesn’t work for me. My identity is strongly based on my observations and understanding of reality, of myself and everything around me.

Both religion and therianthropy give people an explanation they otherwise wouldn’t get from science. It’s about the why rather than the how.
Religion explains why the universe and all of us exist.
Therianthropy explains why one feels drawn to the idea of being an animal or why they exhibit unusual behavior — because on some level, they are an animal. And yes, this often applies to psychological therianthropy as well.

The problem is that those whys usually contradict my understanding of reality, and I can’t stand that. I find it much easier to accept that there is no god, given that there’s no proof or any “proof” can be explained without a god. Likewise, I rather view myself as fully human because there’s nothing to prove the contrary without a shred of doubt.

@volpi For me it’s very much the same as being transgender. I was not born with a female body or a female mind. There are options to make your body look like a female one (hrt, grs and even voice training), but it’ll never be fully right. I find your point of view a bit sad since it basically says to not even try, because you can never reach your goal. Even if there were incredible technology in the future that could give you the perfect body with the press of a button because you’ll still retain your old mind and you’ll never be able to change that without basically „deleting“ you. And what’s still the point then?

If I’d get the chance to transition species in the future, I’d take it without a second thought. Not because I know my current mind is physically that of a dragon, but because I long for that body and I’d be willing to relearn how to live as one.

@Stellae Regarding the second half of your post, I very much agree! I feel the same way.

As for the first half, I don’t think you can draw a connection between not wanting to be called a dragon and not even trying.
I explained earlier that my online activity is divided in 2 modes: the usual one where I am my character to handle my feelings, and a more distanced mode where I talk about these things, like right now. And if the first mode doesn’t count as “trying”, I’m not sure what would.

I do believe that unless that miracle technology also adjusted my mind, the result would be something that doesn’t match my idea of “being a dragon”. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t use it, or that it wouldn’t make me happy. But I see no harm in acknowledging that my existence would be fundamentally different from genuine members of the same species because of my human mind.

As for whether adjusting ones mind is equal to deletion… yes, probably. Maybe. I won’t say for sure because the topic “in what way does a mind have to change to be considered ‘replaced’?” is a whole can of worms with a lot of interesting questions to think about.

@volpi Ah, I think I misunderstood you then. I thought you meant that your character mode is more like roleplaying for the sake of “having to” than actually feeling/wanting to be a dragon and doing it because of that. But the way you describe it kinda sounds like a plural system to me. With two identities who both strongly identify as their own species and don’t like to be called the other ones.

I do agree that even after transitioning you would be different than genuine members of that species, but I also think that that’s important. For one you wouldn’t otherwise be you anymore and I think it’s also important to acknowledge transspecies critters just as much as it’s important to acknowledge transgender people now.

I think the way you described it as

To me, being a dragon […] means existing as one, in body and mind, with no difference from other members of the same species.
implies that your mind (and memories) wouldn’t be (much) different than from a naturally born dragon. Which means that you as a currently human mind with human memories and human instincts would stop existing. And at that point, what’s the difference between you turning into a dragon and you dying so a completely unrelated to you dragon can be born?

@Stellae

I think it’s also important to acknowledge transspecies critters just as much as it’s important to acknowledge transgender people now.

But I also think people should be aware that these posts may not have the effect they were hoping for. Like I said, I got responses of the “but you are a dragon” kind before and they were the last thing I needed to hear in these moments.

implies that your mind (and memories) wouldn’t be (much) different than from a naturally born dragon. Which means that you as a currently human mind with human memories and human instincts would stop existing. And at that point, what’s the difference between you turning into a dragon and you dying so a completely unrelated to you dragon can be born?

Here are some scenarios to think about:

Let’s say the wonder technology turns me into a dragon without touching my human mind. But because the brain, as a biological component like any other, has changed, my mind automatically adjusts over time (months or even years) until it is also changed. Have “I” died, and if yes, at what point?

I imagine my character to be pretty intelligent, but also having clearly different thoughts and priorities than a human.
If my mind is instantly changed, but I still recognize people and my behavior towards, say, my family, is affectionate, have “I” died? Would you say the same if that change had been gradual?

Let’s go back to reality and let’s say someone has an accident after which their personality is very different, but they still have their memories and consider themself to be the same person. Have “they” died?
Does the answer change if the personality change is “positive” (more kind and calm) or “negative” (angry, violent)?

That’s why I called this a can of worms, because that’s an incredibly tricky subject without definite answers. I love thinking about these things.

@volpi @Stellae

Here's another to chew on:

> Let's say the wonder technology turns me into a dragon without touching my human mind. But because the brain, as a biological component like any other, has changed, my mind automatically adjusts over time (months or even years) until it is also changed.

At what point is your mind a dragon mind instead of a human mind? Is there a span where it's neither? Is there a span where it's both?

@volpi > Let’s say the wonder technology turns me into a dragon without touching my human mind. But because the brain, as a biological component like any other, has changed, my mind automatically adjusts over time (months or even years) until it is also changed. Have “I” died, and if yes, at what point?

No, I don’t think this could be considered dying. Even now, as a human and without any major transitionings happening, you change all the time. You learn new things, you start realizing that you haven’t been the best in the past, you regret what you did and start trying to do better. Your mind has changed, but you’re still the same entity. And I think it wouldn’t be too different for a human mind in a dragon body. You learn new stuff, maybe gain some new instincts, maybe you’re changing your behavior more drastically, but you’ll always have your experiences so far.

I think “experience” is actually one of the biggest points for what makes a mind/personality in my opinion. If I think about my life so far and I think about a completely identical “copy” (not a physical copy, but a copy of instincts, drives, everything that’s inside a brain) of my mind but without going through what I lived through, I don’t think we could be even remotely the same entity anymore.

If my mind is instantly changed, but I still recognize people and my behavior towards, say, my family, is affectionate, have “I” died? Would you say the same if that change had been gradual?

The question in this case is what you consider to be “you”. If every living thing that has some affection towards your family is considered “you”, then no, you didn’t. But in this case, are you and for example your families dog the same person? Otherwise the question is how much else changed. If you think about a gradual change, I don’t think there’s a specific point at which you could be considered “dead”. It’s more of an area. If you still consider your family to be your actual family, but now you like living in a cave and hunting animals, I wouldn’t consider that dying. But if you wouldn’t be recognizable anymore, but there’s a thought in the back of your mind not to harm those people in front of you, then I’d consider “you” to be “dead” at this point.

1/2

@volpi 2/2

Let’s go back to reality and let’s say someone has an accident after which their personality is very different, but they still have their memories and consider themself to be the same person. Have “they” died?

In this case I think a strong argument could be made that they still have their own body as well as that they still consider themselves to be the same person. This opens another thought so: would you consider yourself to be the same “person” if you were a dragon? Personally, I’d say no. Besides the obvious physical and maybe some mental changes, I wouldn’t actually want to identify as a “person” anymore.

Does the answer change if the personality change is “positive” (more kind and calm) or “negative” (angry, violent)?

I think members of affected families might argue differently, especially when their behavior changes to the negative, but I’d say no. If it would change in one direction, it would have to equally change in the other direction as well.

That’s why I called this a can of worms, because that’s an incredibly tricky subject without definite answers. I love thinking about these things.

I actually really enjoy thinking about this right now as well!

@aearo @volpi I’ve thought about it, but this question is much more difficult for me to answer.

Since a dragon mind is probably physically quite different from a human one, you could say it changes when you transition body, but I don’t think this is what you’re looking for and I don’t think it’s a good answer either.

The best way is probably to see it as a scale and use something like x% human-like or y% dragon-like. Then you could argue that it would switch at exactly 50%, but I don’t think that that would necessarily be the case every time either.