we got whom we deserve tbh

@kaia yes kaia, why not taxing the rich?

@Jain @kaia taxes in the EU are already pretty high, so wouldn't that just encourage rich people to leave the country and invest their wealth elsewhere?

@genmaicha @kaia what makes you think of that? is there any record of them leaving and moving for example companies in third party countries? They are telling that to the people yes

@genmaicha @kaia The only thing i know is when they move stuff to a third party country to produce cheaper stuff

@Jain @kaia well for example, people move their money to banks on the cayman islands, and in the US it's common to register your company in the state of delaware (which is basically not a real state) because of the lenient tax policy. so really, "taxing the rich" hits the middle class the hardest, because rich people can easily avoid having to actually pay.

@Jain @kaia so if I were a rich person living in the EU, I would do exactly that. and if I couldn't find a good enough legal loophole, I would leave the EU entirely.

@genmaicha @kaia how about making the tax retroactive? like evading taxes you can plug the holes

@Jain @kaia what do you mean exactly? like a fine if you get discovered for evading taxes?

@Jain @kaia if you did that, then wealthy people would have even less reason to live in that country; past a certain point it's obviously in their interests to move.

@genmaicha @kaia retroactive and laws count beyond borders... take all the internet laws as an example, do you think youtube would let me upload copyright stuff for friends even tho its totally legal in my country?

@Jain @kaia so if you used to be a German citizen, made a bunch of money, and moved to Belize for example, and all your money was in Belizean banks, the German government could demand Belize to give your unpaid tax money to them?

@genmaicha @kaia sort of, imagine you rule a country, dont you think you could came up with an idea on how you would get that money? Imagine top 500 companies wouldnt pay EU fees for example.
Sure its a bit complicated but damn you if you if you cant came up on ideas from yourself, there are enough ways

@Jain @kaia you're right that they could try any number of methods to wring money out of people, but ultimately the fundamental disagreement is whether a progressive tax policy is even a good idea.

@genmaicha @kaia same question as if capitalism is good or not.
I belive sure it has some advantages but letting companies / rich people fully control on everything would be a really bad cyberpunk fantasy nobody would like to life in. regulations and taxes keeps countries alive and prevents a lot of bad things which would happen to like 90% of the humanity. Imagine not having any food health regulations because its just cheaper if everyone does what they think is good enough

@Jain @kaia @genmaicha Just gonna chime in here real quick. It is not constitutional under the German Grundgesetz to tax stuff retroactively (over several years) (prohibition of retroactive effect or Rückwirkungsverbot)

There is one exeption to this when it comes to taxes: Taxes that are calculated yearly ( example income Taxes) and they usually are "realised" at thr end of the year. So you can actually make laws that would create higher taxes before 31st December and have them be legally binding from that year (unechte Rückwirkung)

Btw you can lower taxes even for the past generally with no such problem.

So you could only really tax the rich in the future.

@genmaicha @Jain @kaia The German Government has its own mechanisms for this.

Generally though capital itself is not the thing you are taxing. Its the gains you get from any asset class that gets taxed.

The money itself should* be able to move freely. But having money sitting in the bank is very unproductive. Most richies have their money bound up in stocks, real estate or just a general company.

For real estate its easy. That stuff is immovable. So in the most general terms (without looking at double tax treaties) the german government will *always* the taxation right for those as they are built inside the german borders.

Same with the general taxes the company pays. As long as its situated in germany you will have to pay German taxes for that business income (if its not stock based company like GmbH or AG). This does only contain the running taxes though. The gain you have from the company generally being worth money is something else.

The other two things are different. Normally those things stocks and the value your company are taxed when you sell them.

So you could have a million-dollar company but as long you not sell it (ie. realize the profits) you don't pay taxes. Same with stocks.

But that does change once move to a "tax haven" where germanys taxation rights would be diminished.

You will have to pay a very special tax once when moving out that taxes into account the (unrealized) gains from these assets. They still be your assets yeah but you will pay. Taxing money you never made is a bitter pill to swallow for richies.

I mean yeah you could just not give a shit and not pay that tax and move to a country that does not have a treaty like russia. But your assets (or what remains) will be seized for sure.

And liquidating tons of stocks and company assets is nothing you can do in a blink of an eye.

Selling massive amounts of stock is also bound to special regs and wont go unnoticed and needs to be planned.

Also your escape will need to be planned as well or you might get detained.

If you manage to flee your life will certainly won't be as good as when you stayed and paid a not measureable amount of taxes on your wealth. And you still can enjoy germanys stability and safety.